We in the third wave of feminism have a different, more subtle fight to fight. We have to continue to chip away at that wall--it is, perhaps, stronger than we thought. Our difficulty comes not from a lack of voice, but from a lack of social freedom to use it. I realize that that sounds very dramatic, but this is something feminists--both men and women--face today. Much of sexism has burrowed down into a hole of humor. It's probably more realistic to say that there has always been sexism (and racism and ageism, etc.) in humor, but somehow in social upheavals, we've forgotten that humor can be harmful.
Now here's the rub: usually, pointing out that some jokes that are "all in good fun" are offensive often just kills the fun. I don't mean the fun of that particular joke. I mean the fun of the situation (party, drinks, get-together, television-watching, whatever) in which the offensive joke or comment is made. It would be easy to say that the person, show or movie who made the comment is ruining the fun, but no one looks at it that way. Instead, the person who took issue with the comment is seen as sour, bitter and uptight. And maybe we are.
So my question is, when do we speak up and say, "No. I will not stand for this casual sexism. I will not permit such 'joking' in my presence, because it goes against what I believe in. It is offensive to myself, and to everyone who has fought for equality. That is not funny." Obviously, we don't have to say exactly that, but when we speak up that is essentially what we're saying.
I can't claim that I speak up all the time. It's so much easier to let the moment pass, and not draw attention to myself. Because really, who wants to be seen as the uptight person that everyone else has to watch what they say around? And sometimes I think, It's just one joke. It's just one person, or one movie. What can I really do by getting upset about this? What harm can one joke do? But the only other option is to not do or say anything, and given the choice between speaking up and being passive (essentially saying, 'This is okay'), the choice should be obvious. Because the fact is one joke can do harm. Sexist jokes trivialize the feminist movement and reinforce harmful stereotypes. If feminists don't begin to find their voice amongst friends, how can we claim the right to make a difference?
I wholeheartedly agree that the problem in today's culture is that sexism is viewed as a non issue or it has already passed and everything is fine and dandy now. Whereas it's actually harder now to get rid of the final strands of sexism because they are still rooted to the huge facets of pop culture (biggest being movies like Transformers and other blockbuster hits that treat sexism and racism like a thing of the past) That's going to be the hardest part, to actually let someone know or see that HEY sexism still exists because I'm willing to bet most people's train of thought is that "oh women's right movement already happened so now we don't have to worry about it" It also becomes dangerous because if we do push the issue enough and bring it out a lot of people will say we are trying to go the opposite way and just have women over men which is totally not true and it is depressing when people think that is the role of feminism today. ...well I hit on a lot of points there so I'll stop for now
ReplyDeleteYour post made me think of a similar situation in which I spoke up to tell someone that the joke they were making was racist and offensive. I really liked the person, and I felt uncomfortable, but as a human, I was offended.
ReplyDeleteI think it is important to realize that most people who make these kinds of jokes don't do so on purpose. In fact, they may have very feminist ideas. However, when we tell them, in love, about the offensiveness of their comments, it brings to the surface conversations that society in the mainstream has been pushing underground. These are the conversations that suggest that a society still showing symptoms cannot be healed from its disease. In other words, if society still accepts sexist and racist remarks as "funny," then can we really call it "progressive"? Can we really say that we are a society that values gender (and racial) equality? I don't think so.
In the Bible, Jesus used the term "white washed tombs" to describe the pharisees, or those who put on airs of being religious but were really malicious, treacherous, and wrong-hearted. I suggest that this is an acceptable term to apply to our society. While feminism, envrionmentalism, racism, and the like are all labeled as "cool," our values haven't changed much. As a whole, we're just as misguided and hateful as we always have been. Now, we're just instructed to hide our hatred under the rhetoric of "tolerance."
I think my main problem with feminism is this: most self-proclaimed "feminists" that I've had encounters with claim to want equality, when they actually believe that females are superior to males. Well...who am I to argue w/that? I kid.
ReplyDeleteBut really -- they think they are better just because they're women. Is that what women really fought for when they won the right to vote? Supremacy? I don't think so.
They also take themselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. Learn to laugh at yourself...it's healthy. (However, I'll bet they laugh at "stupid men" and "small penis" jokes.)
Anywho...the jokes are funny. Obviously, I'm not barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. And I don't have small feet but I can see the clock on the oven just fine from here. I don't doubt that at least some were made up by women.
I also have a hard time with this, and with any other jokes that aren't funny (racist, etc.)...Sometimes I do intervene...depending on the situation. If it's a friend making the joke, I'll tell them how I felt about it later, usually. Sometimes I simply withdraw my presence and hope they will get the hint. This is a difficult issue.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, thank you for including men as a participant in the feminist movement. The friends and enemies of this movement alike represent an idea not a gender. Women can perpetuate sexism as much as any man if not worse, so please always speak up, I would support you, and I'm sure many others would as well.
ReplyDeleteMy argument is that we as a group, need to start a movement of pro individuality. We need to stop mindlessly objectifying gender, race, religion and sexuality, as a whole and drive our culture into a future that advocates individuality first group think second.
A major reflection on the downfall of feminism is our entertainment, Hollywood still supports the idea that a female driven story that's not a Rom-com can't make money. But that's not Hollywoods fault, they stay in business by appealing to their market and their market speaks with box office numbers that don't lie. The bet theory I can think of is our culture can emphasize with a male character, women have no issue relating with a male character without feeling threatened or conflicted. So is there a psychological barrier that keeps our culture from being drawn to a female character an relating with her individualality instead of think Juno talks and acts funny-for a girl? How come a chubby guy like Seth Rogen or Kevin James into a comedy and men/women alike can't fill the theater fast enough, but if you want to do a story about an ugly woman, you hire America Ferrera and slap braces on her teeth and even then your comedy series can't survive more than 3 seasons.
Things are not well, and I'm not sure what the solution or problem is anymore.
One movie that handles the objectification of women as a main story element and did it well is "Little Miss Sunshine", the scene at the resturaunt when Olive wants Ice Cream for breakfast. That movie had a very powerful pro individuality message.
ReplyDeleteI myself am going into filmmaking, and I assure you, I will be exploring these themes. Fiction brings truth to the lies we can't see.
"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a door mat or a prostitute."
ReplyDelete~Rebecca West
I don't think of myself as a feminist. I am a person and demand to be treated that way. I can't stand that whenever I do stand up for myself and other women when the seemingly innocuous jokes enter the conversation, wherever that may be, I am seen as a "feminist." What the hell is that and why the hell does it matter? It is just another word used as a mechanism to diminish my point, which is, just because I am a woman, doesn't mean you can squeeze me into your box to label me and write me off as a joke.
Grace
I think that women should feel comfortable speaking their mind even in the most casual situations. Too much pressure is put on us to just "keep things civil" or to only engage in "polite" conversation. You don't have to make it a big deal in which tension rises and people leave the room, but you can bring it up like "wow, that was kind of messed up" and explain how you feel. If then some bro wants to say "Chill out, it's just a joke." You can then smack him in the face with some hard facts about womens oppression and explain that little jokes help perpetuate the already dominating patriarchy that we have to live in. Usually they'll just back off and if not you can hit 'em where it hurts by bringing up how much privilege they get ESPECIALLY concerning class, i.e. some yuppie manager, what kind of oppression does he really face?
ReplyDeleteIn the end this really is about class. A women making $200,000 isn't feeling as much oppression as the single mother working 2 minimum wage jobs because in our society money = respect.
I think thats what needs to change and can only by women of similar backgrounds getting together and making decision anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalism style to decide how to smash the patriarchy, and like it said previously, individually feel enough courage to stand up to sexist BS.
I wish I could point people in the direct of some meet up groups dealing with this or at least some sites but that's what I'm still looking for in my personal struggle so if people can suggest any that would be awesome.
Thanks for posting this to keep/get the conversation going!
-solidarity forever!
I really agree with Kristin's comment. That has pretty much summed up how I feel about feminism today.
ReplyDelete"You don't have to make it a big deal in which tension rises and people leave the room, but you can bring it up like "wow, that was kind of messed up" and explain how you feel. If then some bro wants to say "Chill out, it's just a joke." You can then smack him in the face with some hard facts about womens oppression and explain that little jokes help perpetuate the already dominating patriarchy that we have to live in. Usually they'll just back off and if not you can hit 'em where it hurts by bringing up how much privilege they get ESPECIALLY concerning class, i.e. some yuppie manager, what kind of oppression does he really face?"
ReplyDeleteAnd you really don't think that might ruin the fun of the party?
I think the best way a feminist can handle the party situation is to make a joke about the man in retaliation. For example:
ReplyDeleteMike- "... and he hired the one with the biggest tits!"
Crowd- Laughter
Feminist- "Why did Mike's girlfriend cross the road? To have sex with the neighbor because Mike has a tiny dick!"
People don't respond well to righteous causes and intellectual 'snobbery' these days. You have to be witty, succinct, and passive aggressive to get things through.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePart of the problem with feminism today is... feminism. I have a couple points to make here starting with the idea that Kristen brought up. Feminists are women who think women are superior to men and they take themselves too seriously. To extend the stereotype, militant man-haters, bra-burners, lesbians, women who force-this-idea-down-your-throat-until-you-swallow-it-or-choke. Right? Almost every time I have asked someone what their first, visceral thought is about feminists, this is what they've said. Why? That's not our generation. These aren't our experiences. So before I begin an incredibly long monologue on that, I think some of the problem lies with preconceived ideas of what feminism is.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I think we take feminism for granted. Well, I take it for granted. I assume that EVERYONE is down with the ladies. I mean, why wouldn't you be? There are so many things still worth fighting for. Everyone has contact with a woman at some point. Wouldn't you want her to be safe, healthy and equal? It's so common sense to me that sometimes I disregard that not everyone feels the way I do.
And as for me, when someone says something blatantly sexist and I'm in the snarky mood, I like to come back with the glaringly awkward. "Oh yeah! Haha. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, my friend was thrown through a closet door by her boyfriend... But yeah, that bitch totally deserved it."
OKAY, here we go. Let's try this again. The proofread version. OY.
ReplyDeleteI haven't read everyone's responses, but I shall do that promptly following my own reaction.
A joke, by definition, is meant to be brushed off and not taken seriously. It's meant to be facetious and amusing. However, we all have different senses of humor and breaking points. So what I find funny, you might not. Some people like Monty Python, others like Bo Burnham; some like Aziz Ansari, others Dennis Leary. When it comes to comedy, someone will always be offended. ALWAYS. That's the nature of humor.
We all walk a fine line. What's necessary to take in to account is the environment and audience when making a joke, telling a story, suggesting a book, movie, band, etc. Would it be wise to tell an anti-semetic joke to a jew? Probably not. Would it be wise to make a joke at the expense of a handicapped person to someone who works with them? Probably not. Would it be wise to make lude remarks to someone who is conservative? Again, probably not. My sense of humor, to some, is crude and offensive. For the most part, I know who I can say what to. There's a distinction between "all in good fun" and being blatantly disrespectful and offensive. This is applicable to all people, no matter what their circumstance.
Does that mean we should brush it off? Not necessarily. There are some jokes that CLEARLY cross the line and in those instances, we need to speak up. Remember the Ben Stiller movie "Tropic Thunder" and the uproar it caused? That's what I'm talking about. Again, there's a massive grey area. You just have to know what you as an individual will tolerate and speak up.
Sweet. My totally long rant comment was deleted. Not doing it again.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Carlin puts it best about the part of taking ourselves too seriously, "I also happen to like it when feminists attack these fat-ass housewives who think there's nothing more to life that sitting home on the telephone, drinking coffee, watching TV and pumping out a baby every nine months. P-poom, p-poom, p-poom, p-poom, p-poom...will seven be enough Bob?...p-poom, p-poom. But what's the alternative? What's the alternative to pumping out a unit every nine months? Pointless careerism? Pointless careerism? Putting on a man-tailored suit with shoulder pads and imitating all the worst behavior of men? This is the noblest thing that women can think of? To take a job in a criminal corporation that's poisoning the environment and robbing customers out of their money? This is the worthiest thing they can think of? Isn't there something nobler they can do to be helping this planet heal? You don't hear much about that from these middle-class women. I've noticed that most of these feminists are white middle-class women. They don't give a shit about black women's problems. They don't care about Latino women. All they're interested in is their own reproductive freedom...and their pocketbooks. But, when it comes to changing the language, I think they make some good points, because we do think in language and so the quality of our thoughts and ideas could only be as good as the quality of our language. So maybe some of this patriarcho shit ought to go away. I think spokesman ought to be spokesperson. I think chairman ought to be chairperson. I think mankind ought to be human kind, but they take it too far, they take themselves too seriously, they exaggerate. They want me to call that thing in the street a personhole cover. I think that's taking it a little bit too far. What would you call a lady's man, a person's person? That would make a He-man an It-person. Little kids would be afraid of the boogieperson. They'd look up in the sky and see the person in the moon. Guys would say come back here and fight like a person. And we'd all sing "for it's a jolly good person." That's the kind of thing you would hear on late-night with David Letterperson. You know what I mean? So...so I think it's an exaggeration and I like to piss off any group that take's itself a little bit too seriously. An it does not take a lot of imagination to piss off a feminist. All you gotta do is run into NOW headquarters or Ms. magazine and say, "hey, which one of you cute little cupcakes wants to come home and cook me a nice meal and give me a blowjob!" "blowjob!" Oh. Oh, that pisses them off. You want to piss off a feminist, call her a cum-catcher. That'll get her attention. Aww don't act disgusted. Don't act disgusted. Half of you are going to go home and go down on each other tonight remember? If you're willing to swallow cum, let's not make believe something I said was disgusting. Okay? Huh? All right, let's not have a double standard here, one standard will do just fine."
ReplyDeleteI fully support you Felicia, The lack of respect that we show women astounds me, because, we all came from the womb of our mothers, it is women who bear children for 9 months, yet we insult them on a daily basis! When you crack a joke about women, you are cracking a joke about your mother and grandmother, I don’t know about you, but I was raised to love and respect my mother, even if she does some things that annoy me to no end. Women bring life into this world, so they should be respected.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I find it appealing that as a man, for every $1 I earn, a woman will earn .77 of what I earn, for the same work that takes the same skills. As of 2009 15 out of the 500 companies that form the core of the Fortune 500 are ran by a woman, the rest being ran by a man. So women run 5.6% of Fortune 500 companies.
I hope that we can be the change we want the world to be!
Alright, I have tried twice now to post a big old comment and I got error messages. Let's go for 3.
ReplyDeleteBasically I agree with Kristen and Melinda. If you make gender not an okay thing to joke about, we have to make all identity-based things off-limits. That includes not only the obvious ones like race and sexual preference, but also things like body type, religious preference, whether or not one's a pet owner, etc... it gets ridiculous. To quote South Park, "it's all okay or nothing is."
The trick is to call out the jokes that represent a more deep-seated institutionalized racism, not the ones meant to be obviously stupid. I see how you think one can lead to the other, but there is a difference. It's the difference, for instance, between the Adam/Jimmy Man Show and the sexist shlock that followed, or the difference between the comedy of South Park and the comedy of Martin Lawrence.
I've read some philosophers argue, quite convincingly, that we NEED some sexist/racist/etc. jokes in order to expunge those thoughts from our minds. If we can laugh at something, we take away its power.
The difference, it seems, is between laughing at the sexists or laughing with them.
I will continue to hide my rampant sexism behind my humor.
ReplyDeleteIn seriousness though, I think it's important, from a humor side, to be clear about the intent behind a joke when it diverges from "safe" (aka non-offensive) to something that might be offensive to someone (aka, most jokes). If the intent of the joke is to satirize the subject, then it is purposefully commenting on the inequality that is in real life and how much it sucks (to speak generally).
I whole heartedly agree with the main argument of these posts. This is a caveat that I just wanted to bring up because satire is a huge part of comedy and why I'm ok with making sexist jokes, but only if it's meant to be analyzed through humor.
First I want to say thank you to everyone for the feedback. I did not expect this blog to get so much attention, but I am so glad it did! I think it means that people are ready to have this conversation.
ReplyDeleteYou have all been having the exact conversation that I wanted to have with this post. Many of you have brought up really good points about what jokes do, and why they are necessary. I think it's great that we are hearing voices from the whole arc of this subject.
What we're talking about here, though, is the question: WHEN is it okay? Cindy's comment isn't here anymore (I'm not sure why--it was a great comment), but she talked about some things that should be off limits. She suggested sexual assault and reproductive rights. I think that's a really great point, which brings me to my next point.
Eric quoted the South Park creaters: "It's all ok or nothing is." I wholeheartedly disagree with that. In fact, I would call it a false dilemma. There has got to be an in-between. There are some things that are just not funny. Eric is right, though, that there is a difference between sexist and funny.
The real issue is how do we tell when a joke is harmful, and when it's just satire? Where is this acceptable "in-between" section? When is it just commenting on inequality, and when is it re-enforcing everything we are fighting against? Sometimes, it's obvious. For example, The Onion News Network did a segment shortly after DADT was repealed about how it was being made mandatory that women in the military have escorts, and must make dinner for those escorts, etc. I thought that was funny, because it was obviously making fun of how ridiculous DADT was. The Onion News Network also did a segment on "damaged women" protesting something governmental (I didn't catch the very beginning). It highlighted the insecurities of women who have been in abusive relationships and poked fun at the reason women stay in such relationships, and even made a joke about how women cried about abortions they had when they were 17, then later admited they had made the abortion up for attention. I did not think that was funny.
Those are two examples in which the difference in the kind of humor was obvious. The first was making fun of inequality in the military, the second, I felt, was just trivializing a very serious situation that women face. However, it's not always that obvious.
Is there a way of differentiating the more subtly disrespectful from the harmless? Is there an objective answer to this issue? Probably not. I certainly don't have the answer. Like Melinda said, part of the nature of humor is being offensive to somebody. I don't think that's true in all cases with humor, but certainly much of it.
Also, a lot of you have mentioned the issues with feminism today. Those were all very legitimate points. In fact, I think that it's so compelling that my next blog post will be on the nature of feminism, what it is, and the problems within it. Stay tuned!
I've read through all of the comments so far, and it seems like there are a lot of misconceptions of feminism. To be honest,although i have yet to meet them, someone that identifies as a feminist and believes women are superior to men probably exists. I would hardly say this is the majority. I think what it comes down to is wanting to have the same access to things that men do. I think it would be pretty great if a the number of women in congress actually represented the number of women in the United States. I don't think congress should be entirely women, because that's certainly not representative, but i think it's fair enough to think that the fact that only 17% of congress is made up of women. I think the same should be true for minority representation. Part of third wave and further developments of feminism tries to get at issues that failed to be addressed in 1st and 2nd wave. Although it's still lacking, the issues of intersectionality have become increasingly important. Understanding that women of color and lower classes are likely more oppressed than perhaps a upper-middle class white woman, is a basic explanation of this issue. Unfortunately, i think this once again comes down to representation. Much like 2nd wave feminism, a lot of the voices of feminism in academia and the media we are hearing happen to be white women. But the number of women of color participating in the discussion of feminism is steadily increasing.
ReplyDeleteNow that i've said that, relating to jokes and humor, i think it depends on what is being said. I don't believe that joking about sexual assault or reproductive rights is ever funny , and i would hope that the other people commenting would agree. I will also say that i'm a lot more likely to express feeling frustrated or offended by a joke when it's someone like my boyfriend, my my brother, or a close friend saying it. I get that a lot of people don't necessarily think that it's a problem to joke about women and their capabilities etc. I think when it's making a joke about something that is a right that a women still doesn't have, it's a problem. For example, i think jokes about transgender folks is completely off the table. I don't know that i can think of a more marginalized group that isn't being identified as such right now. Additionally, i think joking about gays and lesbians and their access to the same rights afforded to straight couples is wrong. So essentially, i think that when a group is still being marginalized, whether it be through legal procedures or societal, it should be off the table. Making jokes at others expense gets us no where. What does it accomplish? a few laughs along with a few people being upset. Despite saying this, i will say that i frequently watch south park. I enjoy shows like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Understanding that it's a commentary of these issues, and that these are informed comments and meant to spark discussion perhaps makes them different from a show that's being crude for the sake of being crude. Maybe i'm the only person that does this, but i can think of several episodes of south park where after watching it, i looked up the information that was presented on the show and gathered my own opinion of how it was presented and what my thoughts are. I think we just need to learn to be more thoughtful. Maybe next time someone tells an offense joke that you don't know the context of, look up information. Inform yourself. Strive to learn as much as you can instead of making assumptions about groups of people.